You have an uphill battle ahead of you for sure with a close-ranged list. My Smurfs seemed to do best when I overloaded them with targets. I use ML combat squads and other shooty elements to shake and stun vehicles while everything else tries to get close. You can do the same but with less ranged shots you really need to pick targets well. Once you do get stuck in make sure you setup your assaults so only 1-2 of your guys get to attack in the first round of combat so you stay in combat until the next assault phase. This really works great if you can set up multiassaults with Chimeras and guardsmen.
What is ML combat squads? I understand combat squads but I'm not familiar with ML.
I do lack shots for sure, as evidenced at TempleCon, but I didn't do anything to fix it. I think I'm going to put a "rifleman dreadnought" in future lists.
Ditch the Dreadnought as it will likely never make it to the opposite side of the board. Take another Predator set up just like the other one.
Ditch the LotD squad. They're really cool, but if you're looking to beat Imperial Guard and some of the other nasty lists you'll need something better than 'cool'.
This will free up enough points to take a third Predator (set up the same) and then turn those Rhino's into Razorbacks w/ twin-link lascannons.
Dealing with 3 Predators, 3 Razorbacks and a Land Raider should prove to be very difficult.
Great advice Oni! These were options that I originally started him off with. But we started making chances because I felt it was important for him to learn using stuff he likes. I think Jim actually has 3 predators sitting around.
There are certain IG vehicles you need to nail early. You won't survive a games worth of them firing at you. Manticores come to mind but there are others as well.
I would go with the drop pod for the dread, ditch the LoTD for the Pred as Oni mentioned. I might keep one rhino instead of razorback for your squad with a meltagun. Also Lascannon/TL Plasmagun turrets for razorbacks could be a consideration.
Also, be sure to use the drop pod to block LoS for them as much as possible. Deploy strongly on one flank so lots of his army has little to nothing to shoot at.
This is great advice all the way around. Drop the LOD and mech up. also once you are in range, guard on foot love there cover saves so any thing to negate that like (guard+SM flamer=by by) :) so a drive by rhino with a flamer is awesome. THE EMPEROR PROTECTS
Also a rhino with a librarian spitting out machine curse is really annoying to a demolisher because as long as it hits you will always get a cant shoot result at min. forcing a guard player to play your game is the way to ruin his day.
Kasrkar (my blogging parter from My Brother, My enemy) take a list like this. Basically, what he does is sets up in a block in the middle of his deployment zone, and then shoots all of my beautiful unpainted models to death, while his valkyries and vendettas shoot me up close. I have never yet won against him, but i have some suggestions. 1. Do NOT try to outshoot him. It just doesn't work. 2. TH/SS termies deepstriking are never nice, because no matter how many meltaguns shoot at them, there will always be 1-2 left standing. I suggest deepstriking these, with the libby, and then owning until they are dead. 3. Drop the LotD, add a pred, and if you have points left over, drop the dread and get another tl lascannon razorback.
Whenever we see battles vs leafblower the real issues for the marine player are:
1. Losing his nerve! You forget you are a marine and try to hunker down under the artillery fire and hope for the best. USArmy doctrine is to immediately leave the kill zone primarily by going after the attacker. Against leafblower, you want to go firts and you want to have every vehicle on the go! line. You then go as fast and as smoky as possible into assault range.
Bunching up! You more likely need to charge in tight line abreast, or in an alternating pattern, to give vehicles cover, and if you lose vehicles, the marines need to use maximum coherency as they run forward.
Target Priority! Well, you know what that means...
Thank you all for your advice. From the different discussions on different blogs, plus the results from recent cons, it seems that this IG list seems to be the bug in the ointment.
If I have to face them I'm going to: 1) Bunch up on one side to take away targets.(thanks tristan)
2) Get up on their asses with the termies and the LotD. I know the Legion is on my list for fluff, but to be effective I need to make them worth the points.
3) Rely on armor and invulnerable saves to keep my units around to do some damage.
If you REALLY want the Legion, make the PC a MM. That's a lot more scary than a PC to IG. I would be careful about bunching up too much... Manticores flipping pie plates around to hit up to 3 vehicles at a time is bad if you're bunched.
Heya, I see my blogging partner has beaten me to commenting... As an IG AND eldar player, I love nothing more than to see leafblowers lose. My marine list-making skills are limited, but I'll give you a few tips. Always trying to be in a position to hit side armor helps. I may suggest using a scary yet durable unit as bait to make them turn their vehicles towards it (thunder hammer/storm shield termies are great for this), then rock that side armor 10 with all you have. Also, don't worry about chimeras as much until those skimmers, russes, and artillery pieces are down. I've noticed that the average leafblower chimera squad isn't super potent at a range, so you atleast have a tiny bit of time to use those missle launchers and lascannons to take out as many heavy hitters as you can. Goes like this, kill vendettas and manticores first, then colossi and medusae, then russes and hydras, then everything else. Other than that, just stick to cover, pick your targets, and make sure that your guys hold their ground while you take down everything scary. Hope this was semi-helpful at the minimum, and I wish you good luck, friend. :)
Not knowing exactly what is in your opponents leaf blower list is a problem, as there is the original leafblower list that took out Adepticon and then there are variations on the theme.
Denying your opponent the alpha strike keeps you in the game that much longer, never plan on winning the roll off to see who goes first. Keep part of your army in reserve, if they are not on the table they are not a target.
I use a SW DP list with DP's full of GH's and I put my RP in a Razorback and race him across the table to the same flank my scouts are working on. JotWW works well on IG but I have to position the RP so that the power has a chance of taking down as many troops as possible.
While the scouts and RP work on a flank, the GH's drop in and shoot the place up, my Preds take on any of the IG big tanks that are in LoS and thats how I deal with large IG 'LB' lists.
1)I say put the dread in a pod with a locator beacon. Turn 1 the pod come's in. then if the pod is alvie deep strinking termies with libraians and lod come in off the beacon.
2) Also to free up points for the pod drop a rhino and put the combat squad with the chaplin in the land raider
You have an uphill battle ahead of you for sure with a close-ranged list. My Smurfs seemed to do best when I overloaded them with targets. I use ML combat squads and other shooty elements to shake and stun vehicles while everything else tries to get close. You can do the same but with less ranged shots you really need to pick targets well. Once you do get stuck in make sure you setup your assaults so only 1-2 of your guys get to attack in the first round of combat so you stay in combat until the next assault phase. This really works great if you can set up multiassaults with Chimeras and guardsmen.
ReplyDeleteWhat is ML combat squads? I understand combat squads but I'm not familiar with ML.
ReplyDeleteI do lack shots for sure, as evidenced at TempleCon, but I didn't do anything to fix it. I think I'm going to put a "rifleman dreadnought" in future lists.
Ditch the Dreadnought as it will likely never make it to the opposite side of the board. Take another Predator set up just like the other one.
ReplyDeleteDitch the LotD squad. They're really cool, but if you're looking to beat Imperial Guard and some of the other nasty lists you'll need something better than 'cool'.
This will free up enough points to take a third Predator (set up the same) and then turn those Rhino's into Razorbacks w/ twin-link lascannons.
Dealing with 3 Predators, 3 Razorbacks and a Land Raider should prove to be very difficult.
Great advice Oni! These were options that I originally started him off with. But we started making chances because I felt it was important for him to learn using stuff he likes. I think Jim actually has 3 predators sitting around.
ReplyDeleteInstead of ditchin the dread you could put him in a pod and drop him on their side of the table.
ReplyDeleteThere are certain IG vehicles you need to nail early. You won't survive a games worth of them firing at you. Manticores come to mind but there are others as well.
ReplyDeleteI would go with the drop pod for the dread, ditch the LoTD for the Pred as Oni mentioned. I might keep one rhino instead of razorback for your squad with a meltagun. Also Lascannon/TL Plasmagun turrets for razorbacks could be a consideration.
Also, be sure to use the drop pod to block LoS for them as much as possible. Deploy strongly on one flank so lots of his army has little to nothing to shoot at.
ReplyDeleteThis is great advice all the way around. Drop the LOD and mech up. also once you are in range, guard on foot love there cover saves so any thing to negate that like (guard+SM flamer=by by) :) so a drive by rhino with a flamer is awesome.
ReplyDeleteTHE EMPEROR PROTECTS
Also a rhino with a librarian spitting out machine curse is really annoying to a demolisher because as long as it hits you will always get a cant shoot result at min. forcing a guard player to play your game is the way to ruin his day.
ReplyDeleteKasrkar (my blogging parter from My Brother, My enemy) take a list like this. Basically, what he does is sets up in a block in the middle of his deployment zone, and then shoots all of my beautiful unpainted models to death, while his valkyries and vendettas shoot me up close. I have never yet won against him, but i have some suggestions.
ReplyDelete1. Do NOT try to outshoot him. It just doesn't work.
2. TH/SS termies deepstriking are never nice, because no matter how many meltaguns shoot at them, there will always be 1-2 left standing. I suggest deepstriking these, with the libby, and then owning until they are dead.
3. Drop the LotD, add a pred, and if you have points left over, drop the dread and get another tl lascannon razorback.
I'm liking the drop pod dread. Maybe turn the LoD into Drop Pod Sternguard. We shall have to experiment!
ReplyDeleteWhenever we see battles vs leafblower the real issues for the marine player are:
ReplyDelete1. Losing his nerve! You forget you are a marine and try to hunker down under the artillery fire and hope for the best. USArmy doctrine is to immediately leave the kill zone primarily by going after the attacker. Against leafblower, you want to go firts and you want to have every vehicle on the go! line. You then go as fast and as smoky as possible into assault range.
Bunching up! You more likely need to charge in tight line abreast, or in an alternating pattern, to give vehicles cover, and if you lose vehicles, the marines need to use maximum coherency as they run forward.
Target Priority! Well, you know what that means...
Thank you all for your advice. From the different discussions on different blogs, plus the results from recent cons, it seems that this IG list seems to be the bug in the ointment.
ReplyDeleteIf I have to face them I'm going to:
1) Bunch up on one side to take away targets.(thanks tristan)
2) Get up on their asses with the termies and the LotD. I know the Legion is on my list for fluff, but to be effective I need to make them worth the points.
3) Rely on armor and invulnerable saves to keep my units around to do some damage.
SS
If you REALLY want the Legion, make the PC a MM. That's a lot more scary than a PC to IG. I would be careful about bunching up too much... Manticores flipping pie plates around to hit up to 3 vehicles at a time is bad if you're bunched.
ReplyDeleteHeya, I see my blogging partner has beaten me to commenting...
ReplyDeleteAs an IG AND eldar player, I love nothing more than to see leafblowers lose.
My marine list-making skills are limited, but I'll give you a few tips.
Always trying to be in a position to hit side armor helps. I may suggest using a scary yet durable unit as bait to make them turn their vehicles towards it (thunder hammer/storm shield termies are great for this), then rock that side armor 10 with all you have. Also, don't worry about chimeras as much until those skimmers, russes, and artillery pieces are down. I've noticed that the average leafblower chimera squad isn't super potent at a range, so you atleast have a tiny bit of time to use those missle launchers and lascannons to take out as many heavy hitters as you can.
Goes like this, kill vendettas and manticores first, then colossi and medusae, then russes and hydras, then everything else.
Other than that, just stick to cover, pick your targets, and make sure that your guys hold their ground while you take down everything scary.
Hope this was semi-helpful at the minimum, and I wish you good luck, friend. :)
-Kasrkar,
My Brother, My Enemy
Not knowing exactly what is in your opponents leaf blower list is a problem, as there is the original leafblower list that took out Adepticon and then there are variations on the theme.
ReplyDeleteDenying your opponent the alpha strike keeps you in the game that much longer, never plan on winning the roll off to see who goes first. Keep part of your army in reserve, if they are not on the table they are not a target.
I use a SW DP list with DP's full of GH's and I put my RP in a Razorback and race him across the table to the same flank my scouts are working on. JotWW works well on IG but I have to position the RP so that the power has a chance of taking down as many troops as possible.
While the scouts and RP work on a flank, the GH's drop in and shoot the place up, my Preds take on any of the IG big tanks that are in LoS and thats how I deal with large IG 'LB' lists.
1)I say put the dread in a pod with a locator beacon. Turn 1 the pod come's in. then if the pod is alvie deep strinking termies with libraians and lod come in off the beacon.
ReplyDelete2) Also to free up points for the pod drop a rhino and put the combat squad with the chaplin in the land raider